As someone who was motivated to make the sourdough journey because I wanted to bake ryes, I've wondered about this for a while: in my experience, lots of artisan bakeries make excellent wheat breads, but few make good ryes.
Do you think this is true? If so, why? And which bakeries would you urge me to go to to get good ryes?
Thanks!
Rob
This is going to very dependent on the country, isn't it? I would expect to find many more good ryes in Germany than the US, for example, and the ideas of what a rye bread should be will vary too.
TomP
for sure, Tom, I've had great ryes in Switzerland and would expect them to be great in Germany and in the Baltics and Russia and Scandinavia. But I'm based in NYC and was really referring to the 'rye bread situation' in the U.S. -- which I believe could be classified as a national disaster🤣
There are two small bakeries near me that sometimes make rye breads. I'm sure they are nothing like hardcore European ryes, nor like Jewish deli style either, but I like both of them. They look dark, are dense but not too dense, have a relatively soft crumb, and taste rich and a little sweet. They make for good toast.
By contrast, the only "real" pumpernickel I've had has been the kind imported from Germany in little packages. I haven't like them much at all. But then I haven't put smoked fish or similar on them, so maybe it's not a fair assessment.
It doesn't pay for most folks. Enjoy!
I'm like you, I created a rye sourdough starter so I could make rye breads. There are so many styles of rye breads, and virtually none of them are readily available. I believe most Americans do not like the taste of rye breads, or even whole wheat breads, so most bakeries won't bake those breads.
One bakery that was mentioned by Stanley Ginsberg on his website is Black Rooster Food. They advertise authentic Latvian rye breads and several stores in NYC sell their breads.
It's not just Americans. Most people prefer white and wheat. Always had. Historically, rye and whole grain are breads of need and necessity.
Need & necessity are my thing!
Your post sent me down a rye trail on the web and I found this fantastic 1998 article, from the fabled NYTimes reporter Johnny Apple: https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/15/dining/the-miracle-of-rye-in-germany-and-among-some-here-rye-bread-is-a-spiritual-thing.html?unlocked_article_code=1.B1A.zzRe.FBe98dFETXvQ&smid=url-share
As the head of the Berlin baker's guild told him, "Misery time is bread time.''
Rob
I enjoyed reading it.
Paul
thanks, a! I'm gonna track down some Black Rooster.
My brother thought the same thing you do: people just don't want ryes. I guess that's where my commitment to "power to the people" falls apart.🤣🙃
Rob
In my little orbit of baking friends and recipients, I am the only one who regularly bakes 100% ryes and whole grains, and prefers eating them.
The rest falls pretty much along gender lines. The females like breads white, sweet, and soft. The guys like texture aka "chew", crunchy crusts, and more of a variety of flavor.
I doubt that generalisation would hold up among this forum's participants, but it's true here.
The thing is, if I make a wheat loaf with 30% wholegrain flour I can do most things with it - accompaniment, sandwiches, open sandwiches, toast.
Whenever I make a rye bread with 60% wholegrain rye or more, I never really know what to do with it. OK, we don't eat meat, which doesn't help, but the options are much more limited.
I would also point out that if you look at sites like homebaking.at, the rye flour often used is T960/T997 light rye, so even in Austria and Germany my thoughts are that full on wholegrain rye loaves are pretty niche.
Lance
I understand that issue with rye breads and another member of the household is definitely not a rye fan. My problem breads are ones that have a lot of strong-flavored add-ins, like garlic or onion. I might not want that for breakfast, and probably not with jam. I will add the traditional rye bread spices (caraway, fennel, coriander, etc.), but those usually don't overpower the bread.
I generally follow a vegetarian diet, too, and I'll have hummus on rye bread for lunch. I also eat some (about once a week) tinned fish like herring, mackerel, or the occasional tuna or sardines. The other day, I made a grilled smoked cheddar cheese sandwich with the Finnish Malt Bread from Ginsberg's website. I even like rye breads toasted for breakfast.
In the USA, I have very little rye flour available to me and from the conversations, years ago, with Stan Ginsberg, TFL poster and author of "The Rye Baker", the American rye flour behaves totally differently than ryes available elsewhere in the world. That is a big factor that is reflected in the quality of the bread made as a result of this quality issue. Hodgsen Mill used to be my only source and when that mill was sold, they discontinued selling their rye. Now the only rye I have available is boutique-either in price,brand or quantity. It is usually well over $3-$8/lb, and possibly more if there is a big shipping cost. It puts my rye baking into the "rarely" category. As I age and experience health issues and income effects that reduces all my baking to "rarely", rye baking has become "almost never".
My favorite ryes are Stan's Softige, MiniOven's 100% RYE formula and a good, thick homemade pumperknickle style bread with dates and walnuts.
https://theryebaker.com/das-saftige/
Good point. Maybe everything is economic: a 2-lb bag of the upstate NY rye I usually use is around $6 in the supermarket. In Switzerland, a kilo (~2.2 lbs) of organic rye costs 2.95 chf -- about half the price.
Though many stores charge more, organic rye berries and flour can be had locally for $2.40 per 2 lb bag (Natural Grocers). I think it comes from Colorado; I have no complaints on the quality of either.
I can get stone-ground rye flour from a small local restored water mill for $20/4 lb. It's made from locally-grown organic rye. The mill is only 1/2 hour drive so I don't need to pay shipping. Yes, it still seems expensive. Also, I have no idea how this rye behaves compared with European ryes.
Another option for rye flours is a "country store," if you have one nearby. Many of these are Amish/Mennonite stores. I recently visited one that had a large selection of grains and flours. I inquired about the rye flours and found that they were either from Bay State Milling (white, medium, and dark) or Ardent Mills (pumpernickel). The prices were about $1/lb but only packaged in 5-lb bags. That's not usually an issue, but I wasn't sure I would use up that much white rye flour.
It's not that different and there are ways to account for the differences. If you are willing to commit to baking 30-40 breads in a year or so, Great River flour sold on Amazon is $2.40/lb and is about 100 times better than Hodgson Mills.
I agree completely with your assessment. I vaguely remember from long ago in my previous baking era that Gold Medal used to sell rye flour in grocery stores. It was probably medium rye.
I'm fortunate that a large grocery store in my area sells KA Medium Rye for $8 (less than KA's list price) as well as Bob's Red Mill Dark Rye. I also am fortunate to live close enough to Breadtopia that I am in the service area of a regional shipper they use that is much cheaper than USPS or UPS/FedEx. I recently ordered 16 lb of flour (10 rye, 3 ea of emmer and Khorasan) and the shipping was only $10. That made the rye flour about $2/lb. There is also a small European (Serbian) market that sells imported 500-g bags of whole rye, barley, and buckwheat flours for reasonable prices; I think the rye is about $2 a bag.
Bakeries (and every business) stay alive by making and selling things that their customers want to buy. Outside of US cities with significant immigration (or 1-2 generations from immigrants) from rye-eating areas (Northern and Eastern Europe, mainly) there isn't much demand for rye breads in the USA.
Con Pane, a local artisan bakery here in San Diego, CA, bakes one rye bread twice a week. Kozak, a Ukrainian restaurant and bakery in Vancouver, BC makes a couple of ryes and other whole grain breads every day Bakery Counter at Kozak
I started bread baking so that I could get more good whole grain bread, and eventually rye.
Sad but true. Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. -- Rob
At my bakery Bread Obsession in Lexington MA we made two different ryes. One is a Jewish Rye called Tzitzel, that was specifically an attempt to capture a bread that was made by a now gone bakery Pratzels in St. Louis. The other is a German style Rye called Flaxseed Rye, adapted from a bread that was made in a class I took at King Arthur from Jeffrey Hamelman (who is a big rye baker.)
I just went to visit the bakery yesterday and was delighted to see that they were both on the shelf so the new owners are keeping it going and presumably selling them. Both of those breads have sold quite well over the years. What I would take from this is if you have a small batch bakery you can certainly make and sell high quality rye breads. If you are trying to crank out thousands of loaves per day and serve the lowest common denominator, probably not.
Thanks for sending me down a mini rabbit hole googling the history of Pratzel's.
Correct me if I got it wrong from the articles I found online, but is the Tzitzel rye completely coated in cornmeal?
I'm in NYC, but, if I get to Boston any time soon, I'll certainly make a detour to Lexington to visit Bread Obsession and try the ryes. Too bad you won't be there to commune with. Us rye enthusiasts have to stick together.
--Rob
PS: For a while, as an avocation, I was thinking of offering ryes through the Community Supported Ag group I joined. My idea was: No menu. I'd make one type of bread each week. Could be a deli rye, could be a cider rye, could be a Walliser roggenbrot. But I worry that the probs of baking at even a very minimal scale would destroy that marvelous and almost miraculous feeling of pulling a single loaf out of the oven. And, anyway, I'm just not that good of a baker.
I hope you will stop by and try a rye. Nice thought about baking for your CSA. You have to be very careful with this kind of thing, or you could slip down that slippery slope!
Lexington, MA is home to a disproportionate number of MIT and Harvard faculty. It's a good market for products now aimed at sophisticated consumers.
It's ironic that breads like these which were once and in certain places everyday bread for everybody, are now aimed at a specialty market.
There was no decent Rye bread for sale in Lexington before I started selling it. So that's part of the answer as well.