I have a friend with Eosinophilic Esophagitis. He has to avoid wheat. His problem is not with gluten, only the wheat family.
Suggested substitutes for wheat include amaranth, arrowroot, barley, buckwheat, corn, oats, potato, quinoa, rice, rye, and tapioca.
Do you have any suggestions for a deli rye style bread that does not contain wheat?
Thanks, Gary
To me, deli rye is a wheat based bread that relies on gluten for its structure, so the texture probably won't be the same.
Flavor-wise, out of what I have eaten on that list that list I think barley is the closest to wheat. It does have a high soluble fiber content though -- in my experience it soaks up more water than oats or rye -- so might not work out well for the whole portion of non-rye flour. It has taken a very long time to bake every time I've used it for the majority of flour.
I believe what you are trying to achieve may be possible to get close. It all depends on what you expect of a deli rye. Most "deli" ryes these days are dark colored, high wheat content, rye spice flavored loaves that have all the characteristics (bendability, soft texture,elastic) of wheat. If you mean a heartier type of loaf that has reasonable (for a 100% grain) loaf, some bendability and great flavor, then you are in business with my suggestions. Some very delicious experimentation is called for.
One caution-your friend needs to know if your efforts of baking in a kitchen and with equipment that processes wheat products is not going to cause a cross-contamination reaction. Also, is whatever grain you would use clean of any contamination during the whole process-growing near or on fields formerly used for wheat growing, harvested with wheat free equipment and milled without cross-contamination with wheat. Welcome to the world of allergic individuals. Your best bet is to use "gluten free" labelling as a guide. That is a regulated label in the US. Not so much a "wheat free" label-tho that can be helpful.
Well, once those hurdles are achieved-let the games begin!
My vote goes to buckwheat. Some of these will deliver what you want but some will be quite dense. There is a variation in buckwheat groats and flour available. I got a wonderful dark brown/purplish color to my loaves with Bob's Red Mill whole buckwheat flour. The other variation is when the groats are "shelled" and the resulting loaf turns a greenish tan.
https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/71127/community-bake-naturally-fermented-buckwheat-bread%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3E%3Ca href="https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/73155/100-buckwheat-bread">https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/73155/100-buckwheat-bread%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3E%3Ca href="https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/69229/naturally-fermented-buckwheat-bread-no-starter">https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/69229/naturally-fermented-buckwheat-bread-no-starter%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3EAnd then there is rye. MiniOven was the supreme source,a while ago. Look for any of her posts.
https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/15736/mini039s-favorite-rye-ratio%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3E%3Ca href="https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/33328/minis-100-dark-rye-chia-recipe-love-104-hydration">https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/33328/minis-100-dark-rye-chia-recipe-love-104-hydration%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3EI cannot leave out Dabrownman. He had many marvelous recipes. I'll let you comb through them.
https://weightloss-slim.fit/node/50146/dabrownmans-blog-index%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3E%C2%A0%3C/p%3E%3Cp%3EBecause of the nature of the grains you need to work with, gluten free baking is actually the specialty you will get the most benefit from. Non-wheat baking relies on a mix of whole grains (brown rice, teff,amaranth,buckwheat,quinoa,rye, oat, and barley), starches (tapioca starch, potato starch, cornstarch, arrowroot powder) and structural ingredients like protein and gums: (egg, cheese, soy, nuts, beans) and gums/gels like xanthan gum, gelatin, psyllium, flax, chia, guar gum, pectin. Different ratios,hydrations and handling produce different crumbs. Most (not all) GF is more of a batter consistency dough-like a lot of high percentage rye.
You are on quite the adventure but a lot of this has already been done. In the last 10 yrs, GF baking has come VERY far so you don't have to re-invent the wheel. Keep posting and asking questions. Search GF here on TFL. A surprising amount of knowledge.
EDIT: GF and wheat free baking was around a LONG time before wheat came on the scene so don't get too complicated. Simple recipes will promote the likelihood of more frequent baking. Just as an FYI, I looked into a 100% rice loaf recently but, despite its simplicity, I was not able to get a reasonable texture. Others were successful. OTOH, buckwheat came through for a similar recipe and procedure.
My favorite white sandwich bread recipe was from Red Star Yeast website-Buttermilk Sandwich Bread or Farmhouse Sandwich Bread (it's been a while), I believe. That could be adapted to be rye, I bet.
I'm really looking for something lighter, softer and more flexible than the 100% whole rye sourdough I have just started baking.
Thanks for the pointers to Mini's bakes. Those are more like what I want.
Gary
I've been meaning to experiment with the rye-spelt combo for some time.
All of the wheat family is excluded
• Bran
• Bulgur
• Couscous
• Durum
• Einkorn
• Emmer
• Farina
• Farro
• Flour (wheat – all purpose, cake, enriched, graham, pastry)
• Gluten
• Hydrolyzed wheat protein
• Kamut
• Semolina
• Spelt
• Wheat (berries, bran, grass, malt, starch)
Is this one of those cases where even a whisper is too much? I'm thinking of cross-contamination during milling even if the milling is done at home.
TomP
He avoids wheat because it irritates his throat but when I carried stollen to our Christmas party he ate more of it than anyone.
Gary
Good to know. That takes some of the pressure off. My grandson is seriously allergic to peanuts, and a whisper is dangerous.
Try this yeasted batter bread. For "rye bread" flavor, add some bread spice.
BUCKWHEAT BROWN RICE YEASTED SANDWICH BREAD
Ingredients
Instructions
This recipe produces a tender and springy sandwich bread that serves as a good non-wheat option.
I have never used white rye flour, but I have seen many German recipes using German type 997 (Austrian R960) flour that look fairly light. Adding some caraway or Brotgewürz to the bread would lend a deli rye flavor. Mixing some medium and white rye would approximate the 997 flour.
I found a few recipes on the Homebaking blog that might work:
https://www.homebaking.at/zero-fussel-dein-shortcut-zum-perfekten-roggenbrot/
100% Rye Loaf
Pure rye bread
https://www.homebaking.at/roggenbrot-mit-langer-und-kuehler-gare/
And a few on the Adam Piekarz blog:
Lublin Rye
Sourdough Sack Bread
Rye Strainer Bread (uses medium rye)
N.B. Yeast quantities are for fresh yeast
I hadn't considered white rye. I've been grinding my own. The market where we buy our grains has white and medium rye.
Gary
Dietmar says
Any idea what he means? Two-thirds of an as yet unknown seems like a difficult to determine standard.
Gary
I've heard people use different phrases to mean that rising to double is too far for this loaf. "Rise 3/4" "Not quite double" are two phrases that come to mind. Rye is a funny beast, though. It can go from properly proofed to way overproofed 2-5 min later.
Short answer - do like it says.
Long answer 2/3 of whatever you choose - that part is up to you. Enjoy!
Your first link to Zero Fussel Roggenbrot is easy enough to translate from German using Google Translate but it refers to the 72 minute YouTube video in German for the process. The video has lots of back and forth between the interviewer and Dietmar Kappl making it hard for me to follow the process.
I opened up NotebookLM and gave it the web page and the YouTube video as sources. Then I asked for a report in the form of a process outline. Below is the report simply copied from the notebook.
Process Outline: 100% Rye Sourdough Bread (Kappl Method)
Introduction: The "Zero Fussel" Philosophy
This document provides a professional, step-by-step guide to a uniquely efficient and clean method for baking 100% rye sourdough bread. Developed by master baker Dietmar Kappl, this process is built on a "Zero Fussel" philosophy—an approach that eliminates the complex, sticky, and often frustrating hand-shaping of rye dough without compromising the quality, flavor, or texture of the final loaf. This process is the solution for any baker who loves pure rye bread but is frustrated by the difficult-to-handle doughs that often come with it. The approach produces a consistently excellent, rustic rye bread by focusing on fundamental principles: meticulous sourdough starter management, precise temperature control, and a novel handling technique. The following sections provide a complete, chronological workflow for replicating this exceptional result.
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1.0 Phase 1: Sourdough Starter Preparation (Rye Sourdough)
1.1 Context and Strategic Importance
The sourdough starter is the single most critical component in this recipe; it is the "A and O" (alpha and omega) of the bread's final quality, providing all of the flavor, structure, and leavening in this yeast-free loaf. A properly managed starter is the foundation for a successful bake. This specific starter formulation is designed to be relatively firm and uses wholemeal rye flour to develop a robust, fruity aroma. Crucially, its firmness provides remarkable flexibility in the bakery workflow. With a firmer starter like this, you don't need a timer; it's not a disaster if it stands for an extra one, two, or even three hours, giving you a significant buffer to manage your day.
1.2 Starter Formulation and Maturation
The following formulation details the components for the rye sourdough starter.
Follow this procedure for mixing and ripening the starter:
The starter's relative firmness (calculated as 80% hydration, or TA 180, though referred to as TA190 in the video) creates a more flexible ripening window. Compared to a wetter starter, it is less prone to over-fermentation, providing a significant buffer without compromising its quality.
1.3 Controlling Ripening Time with Starter Percentage
The amount of active starter culture (Anstellgut) used is the primary lever for controlling the required ripening time (Reifezeit). This principle allows a baker to adapt the process to any production schedule. The percentage is always calculated based on the total flour weight within the starter itself.
Starter Percentage to Ripening Time (Rule of Thumb)
This recipe uses the 5% / 15-hour model, as 21g of starter culture is 5% of the 420g of rye flour used in the starter.
Once the starter is perfectly ripened—visibly active and emitting a powerful, fruity aroma—it is time to mix the main dough.
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2.0 Phase 2: Main Dough Mixing (Hauptteig)
2.1 Context and Strategic Importance
The mixing process for a pure rye dough is fundamentally different from that of a wheat dough. The objective is not to develop a gluten network but to create a homogenous, well-hydrated, and properly aerated paste. Success hinges on two factors: the use of a rubber paddle attachment and precise water temperature. The paddle incorporates ingredients more efficiently than a dough hook, while warm water is essential to achieve the ideal final dough temperature of approximately 30°C. This target temperature is critical; a colder dough leads to a much longer, slower fermentation, which favors the production of acetic acid (sharp sourness) over the desired lactic acid (mild, complex flavor).
2.2 Main Dough Formulation
The following formulation, as published on Dietmar Kappl's blog, is for a single large loaf with a final dough weight of approximately 1.8kg.
2.3 Step-by-Step Mixing Procedure
After this brief mix, the dough requires a short fermentation period to begin building structure and flavor before being handled.
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3.0 Phase 3: Bulk Fermentation and "No-Shape" Handling
3.1 Context and Strategic Importance
This phase consists of a short bulk fermentation (Kesselgare) followed by a unique handling method. The 20-30 minute rest allows the dough to build initial strength, volume, and flavor. Following this rest, the "no-shape" technique is applied, which is the core innovation of this process. By scooping the dough directly from the bowl into its proofing basket, this method cleverly avoids common rye bread faults. It eliminates flour inclusions ("Mehleinschlüsse") and prevents the development of a dense, compacted crumb that can result from over-handling or improper shaping of the delicate rye paste.
3.2 Bulk Fermentation (Kesselgare)
3.3 "No-Shape" Portioning and Panning
Once the dough is settled in its basket, it is ready for its short final proof before baking.
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4.0 Phase 4: Final Proofing and Baking
4.1 Context and Strategic Importance
This final phase transforms the proofed dough into a finished loaf. The final proof (Stückgare) is brief but critical for developing the loaf's ultimate volume and open crumb structure; assessing its readiness is a key baker's skill. The subsequent baking process, particularly the precise application of steam and the strategic management of oven temperature, is crucial for achieving the desired oven spring, a beautifully fissured crust, and a fully baked, non-gummy crumb.
4.2 Final Proofing (Stückgare)
4.3 Baking Procedure and Oven-Specific Instructions
The ideal baking method differs based on the type of oven used. Below are instructions for both a conventional oven with manual steam and a dedicated steam oven.
4.3.1 Method A: Conventional Oven with Baking Stone (Klimagarer)
4.3.2 Method B: Steam Oven (Dampfgarer)
Regardless of the method used, the loaf must be fully cooled to allow the crumb to set before it can be enjoyed.
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5.0 Phase 5: Cooling
Place the baked loaf on a wire rack and allow it to cool completely for several hours, or preferably overnight, before slicing. This step is non-negotiable for 100% rye bread. The crumb structure is gelatinous and delicate when hot; slicing it prematurely will result in a gummy, sticky texture. This cooling period allows for starch retrogradation, a process where the gelatinized starches rearrange and crystallize, setting the crumb into a stable, sliceable, and delicious final state.
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6.0 Appendix: Troubleshooting Common Rye Bread Issues
This table serves as a quick reference guide for diagnosing and correcting common problems encountered when baking 100% rye sourdough bread.
Wow, Gary, that summary seems very impressive, and of course useful too. Many of the steps seem natural and familiar, but somehow when put all together a good result sounds almost inevitable. I don't usually like to read large blocks of LLM output in a post but I'm making an exception here.
I didn't know of NotebookLM. Whose product is that?
TomP
The (claimed) advantage over other tools is you get to specify the sources it should use. You can have up to 50 sources per notebook and they can be up to 500,000 words each. You can instruct it to only use the material in your sources. I gave it the URL of the web page and of the YouTube video and asked for a report.
I could have asked questions as with other LLMs.
As far as I have been able to check looking at the machine generated English translation of the machine generated German transcript it seems to have gotten it all correct. Lots of room for errors in there. If German speakers spot a mistake I'd be pleased to get a correction.
I have access to NotebookLM through my university. A quick search claims it is free for anyone with a Google account.
Gary
Gary,
Wow. Just asked Notebook LM to summarize two French videos I’ve used to improve my viennoiserie technique and holy focaccia, it caught a lot of detail. An accompanying dialogue between two normal sounding speakers might have overemphasized a few insignificant points and actually incorrectly rationalized(?) the reason for a particular sequence taught in the videos, but all-in-all, very impressive. Seems like the toolset available at the website is quite a bit more robust than the iPad OS app I installed.
Thanks again,
Phil
And it turned out much better than my previous attempts. My friend enjoying it.
Gary
Glad to hear it!
The NotebookLM idea is brilliant—it makes following video recipes so much easier than how I used to do it. Huge kudos to you!
Report on the Preparation of Salinātā Rudzu Rupjmaize (Rusbrot)
Salinātā rudzu rupjmaize is a traditional Latvian rye bread characterized by a complex, multi-stage baking process that utilizes thermophilic fermentation to achieve a distinct sweet-sour flavor profile,. This specific "dark version" incorporates red rye malt and relies on specialized techniques such as scalding and the use of "old" dough.
1. Requirements for Bakers
The process is highly advanced and is intended only for hobby-bakers with significant experience. The source warns that the procedure should not be attempted unless the baker is familiar with rye bread scalds, the difference between sourdough and yeast, and precise fermentation temperature control. The entire process is time-intensive, taking between 56 to 80 hours to complete.
2. The Scald (Saccharification)
The foundation of the bread is a scald, which uses enzymes to break down starch into maltose, making the mixture naturally sweet.
3. Thermophilic Sourdough
To achieve the "fantastic flavor" of Latvian bread, thermophilic fermentation is mandatory; mesophilic fermentation (standard sourdough) cannot replicate the same results.
4. Pre-dough and Main Dough
The recipe incorporates a pre-dough and a final dough to build structure and acidity.
5. Baking and Finishing
The baking process requires high initial heat and specific finishing techniques to ensure the correct crust and aroma.
6. Final Sensory Profile
The resulting bread is described as having a spicy aroma, a "sweaty" (likely meaning moist or rich) taste, and a distinct amaretto flavor,. Despite the intensive labor required, the source notes that every invested hour "pays off" due to the unique sensory qualities provided by thermophilic cultures.
Yippee
NotebookLM is indeed a great way to summarize videos, especially those that might need translation into another language.
If you find a detail left out of the summary, you can ask a question and it will attempt to answer it from the sources you supply. I found that useful when the process guide it generated didn't include baking with a lid instead of steam.
Gary
Another interesting experiment would be to give it two videos and ask it for the key differences between the processes. I haven't tried so I can't say if it would do well.
Gary
An interesting recipe, Gary. Thanks for posting. Also, I really like "zero fussel" -- which I suppose is a street rendering of 'no fuss' but confounds google, which translates it as 'no lint' (fusseln being German for fuzz or lint.)😂😂😂😂
Thanks Gary - a new tool to play with! Though I'm not quite sure what I would use it for in the baking world...
Lance
I'm thinking NoetbookLM might be useful for translating/summarizing the Rus Brot YT videos for Baltic/Russian rye breads…
I'd love to see those. If you'd like any help getting started I'd be glad to chat with a shared screen.
Gary
I'm not quite ready for those recipes, yet. Plus, I need to figure out why my rye culture always peters out in the final dough. Looks fine in the preferment, but poops out in the dough. Very frustrating! I might have to go with the KMKZ, I mean CLAS, method.
Rus Brot Bread recipes (English subtitles) - YouTube
Thanks for the reminder. Some of the videos still don't have subtitles, while others have been auto-dubbed. It would also be nice to have a summary of the method like Gary received so that I wouldn't have to watch the video while baking.
So I tried it by simply pasting in another of the Brot-Kongress German videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBd-K2pXYtA - a Dietmar podcast over an hour long and asked for a summary in English, which arrived almost instantly - impressed!
Lance
Add more such "sources" from Dietmar and you'll be able to ask him questions and get reasonable answers with references to the sources.
For example in the troubleshooting notes from the process I posted, I saw a mention of pot baking so I asked it to tell me more. It then included the instructions for baking the bread with a lid which will be easier for me.
I wouldn't have found that reference on my own.
Gary