stand mixer vs stretch and fold ( open crumb and development of structure )

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restless baker on 10 Apr 2018 at 10:05

hey everyone, thanks for replying to my previous questions, I have a lot more questions now LOL 

when you mix with stand mixer whats the approach for open crumb bread? (I have seen some just incorporate the ingredients and give it like 6 min of total mixing and then just bring the dough out and give it stretch and folds, IAM NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF MIXING APPROACH ) i want to know if there is a way that we use stand mixer and just stand mixer and get open crumb and developed structure or not . it seems like stand mixer mix to the point of full gluten development but the dough doesn't have structure and after a while, it just falls down on itself if not giving it stretches and folds I am not sure if I make sense ) 

I ask this because even when I used to stretch and fold all the way to the end 70% hydration bread, everything was good had some more folds and stretch at the beginning and less stretch and fold at the end of 4 hours bulk proof, I handled the dough carefully and the end result was pleasant with good amount of open crumb ( not so many big holes ) 

 

How to build good dough structure and a good method of pouring that goes well with them? 

 

why is it easier to get the more open crumb with active dry yeast in comparison to sourdough starter? could it be that the starter is not strong ( wild ) enough 

I had more questions but for some reason, I don't remember LOL, I will ask more if I remembered them, thanks 

I make sourdough bread with a relatively open crumb all the time (I am a professional). I mix in a mixer on low for 5-10 minutes and then let it rest, covered and undisturbed, until it has finished proofing. In my experience, stretch and folds or subsequent mixing made no difference in the final loaf. I make 80% hydration bread. My experience, for what it’s worth.

Responding specifically to the comment made by MichaelLily.  However, absolutely anyone with a strong opinion based on his or her own success would go far.  I've heard that it can take a hundred loaves until one feels in the drivers seat for crafting great sourdough.  I've passed that mark many times over, and have had mostly successes.  However, only recently have I gotten onto the stand mixer train.  But more than that...my rationale has been to create a strong enough dough, that I can go straight to bulk fermenting without stretch/folds and when done, shape the boule, put it into my banneton, and into the fridge until baking the next day.  Tomorrow my Ooni Halo Pro spiral mixer arrives, and I am non stop thinking on my new journey.  Of course would love some comment based on experience, but I'll be stumbling/fumbling my way until I get there :).  Thanks for reading this.

Some trial and error has gotten me to a significantly happy place, regarding the spiral mixer.  But I won't be surprised if I continue to experiment.  I have gotten used to some food wasting in my quest....but so far, here is my technique so far.  I am going to experiment with skipping the one set of coil folds. The one thing that thrills me is finally I am in the drivers seat with bulk fermentation.  If my dough is developed enough, bulk becomes a non issue.  No need for any type of dough proofer gizmo.  The spiral mixer gives me a dough that is so non-sticky and it remains so. And truth be told, when it has finished bulk fermenting, the dough does NOT resemble any of those sexy jiggly/bubbly bulked dough videos that I see. It remains smooth and non-sticky....just taller :).  I find myself wanting to bake an 80% hydrated dough that Michael Lilly does.  I hope to find his recipe within this site.  My bread below is 72%.

350 g. water 
500 g. bread flour

Use 20% speed of Ooni to combine above into a shaggy dough, with no floury bits.

Autolyze, covered for 30 minutes.

Add:
100 g. starter, right from the fridge.  Preferably fed and peaked within the prior 72 hours.
11 g. salt

Mix all at 15% power to work the starter and salt into the dough for 1 minute, and then up to 45% until dough comes away from the sides, maybe 12 or more minutes, testing for windowpane.

Let rest in bowl 30 minutes, perform one set coil folds and then put into bulk fermentation by placing the dough in my 8 cup greased pyrex, cover with freeze tite, and let sit on kitchen counter until bed time, around 10:30 p.m. Dough should have risen to the 6 cup level. Open a little venting on the Pyrex and pop into the fridge.

The next morning, gently tip the chilled dough onto silicone sheet, form boule and put into prepared Baneton.  Return baneton to the fridge for up to 48 hours, or at least 6, before un-molding and baking.

Thank you for the reply. WOW that is a long cold ferment, but i bet it is pretty good. For some reason when i mix for that one the dough comes off side of bowl clean but i can not even attempt a window pane. It is so tight wont even move.  I will try the steps you have lined out. I really want one i can do in one day and bake that night. Yours looks like it is right on the minimum for the Ooni.  I like it.  I will try it this week and post back my results.  Are you taking the temp at all? To get that hydration i am assuming your starter is 100%.

I made the dough yesterday. About 3 minutes into mixing at 45% the dough came clean from bowl but was so tight I couldn’t even check for pane. I let it go for 10 minutes. Temp was 82. Was able to get a pane but it took 16 hours at 68 degrees in kitchen to rise and didnt double. Starter is very active and floats. I made a bread i normally make with it by hand it it rose fine. I am going to shape it and let it proof again in mold.  I will let you know the results. I wonder if i am over mixing.