Can I ask the Lievito Madre 'whisperers' what the consistency is of a healthy LM for panettone use?
I made mine several weeks ago by converting an active liquid starter. Last week I baked a good panettone with it and yesterday I started another run with 3 refreshments (bagnetto at 38C first). The final LM triples in just over 3 hours.
The consistency is a lot like marshmallow in terms of feel and how it tears. The core is not sticky as, interestingly, right after you cut it it forms a dry velvet-like surface. The alveoles are small but I believe this depends on the type of flour, gluten development, lamination, storing etc. The smell is pleasant, alcoholy/fruity with a hint of acidity / yogurt and a subtle 'earthy' basenote.
I use King Arthur bread to maintain and at the final refresh I use 50% KAB and 50% Molino Pasini panettone flour. The pH goes from 4.9 to about 4.25.
Any thoughts, does marshmallow consistency sound correct?
NA
What has happened when using it to make the primo impasto? What is the pH after 12 hours fermentation?
It looks somewhat immature to me, it will improve over time. Try refreshing it only twice/day for maintenance. I no longer do bagnetto or 3 refreshments on mixing day.
But I balance the sugar in the primo to avoid over acidification.
Sue,
Thanks for your reply. I saw you are one of the panettone experts here!
This LM worked really well for my third go at panettone! The pH of the primo went from 5.5 to 4.9 after 11 hours at 25C (3x expansion). Final dough was pH 4.95 and after final proof 4.6. My first batch was way more acidic and collapsed in the oven. The second batch went well as I paid more attention to the pH range.
Note the above LM was explosive, tripling in just over 3 hours at the last refresh.
I do 3 refreshment on production day in order to cut over from King Arthur bread flour (maintanance) to panettone flour. My objective is to have LM bound up in the fridge for 1-2 weeks (1:2-3:40-45%) so I dont have to refresh daily and waste loads of flour. So far I notice that stored LM can be brought back quickly to very active levels with pH between 4.2 and 5.0 (>refresh).
Regarding the consistency, is it correct that LM 'feels and tears' like marshmallow?
Best,
Sebastian
Hi Sebastian,
After a feeding, LM reaches its peak of yeast development in the explosive phase between 6 and 8 hours. At that time, LAB continue to grow but yeast slows down. When you store LM between bakes, keep this in mind. If the LM has been allowed to sit/ferment for a long period before storage, it will acidify more quickly once in storage. Although in a cold fridge, any additional ferrmentation slows almost to a halt. You will be able to tell a difference in the texture however.
LM that is stored before this point will still have an elastic texture for a few days in cold storage. After that, the texture becomes more “short” as the gluten is damaged. Using some sugar in the LM (the so-called “sweet starter”) is very protective of the texture. I maintain a sweet stiff starter that remains elastic for long periods between bakes. However, sweet starter does not have the power of regular LM. For that reason, I only use sweet stiff starter for somewhat leaner doughs.
Sue,
On storage, I let the bound LM have a brief 'kick-start' at 28C for an hour or so and then I move it to the fridge. I have seen this being recommended. Is that correct?
After storage I would do a refresh or two and hope to see activity back. The bagnetto I am not sure it is needed as you mentioned. I do notice that afterwards the water pH is significantly reduced (e.g. from 7-8 to 5.5-6.0, so that is an indicator that acids are leaching out of the LM. However, the amount may be very limited as water has no 'buffer capacity' and thus changes pH significantly with only small acid additions.
At any rate, what I refer to with the marshmallow consistency is 3-4 hours after refreshment, the LM that goes into the primo. Does that make sense?
Sounds fine. Ian Lowe feeds twice a day and maintains at 28C all the time. His claim is that any production baker would do this. Those of use who don’t bake constantly would probably find it to be wasteful though.
He also has mentioned with regard to bagnetto that acidity is more on the exterior of the LM, so there might be some slight benefit to rinsing it off in this way. But, the bagnetto water does not penetrate very much into the pieces of LM, so its benefit is minimal.
I am aware however, that the sugar (small amount) in the bagnetto water has a definite kick start effect on the LM. But for me, not very important because I maintain a separate sweet starter, and I also balance sugar in the first dough to both encourage and control the LM.
My LM does not become short and broken after 3 hours at all, it is strong and elastic….
Sue,
My observation is that there are various ways to keep LM active or 'asleep' for various amounts of time. I believe that a commercial baker has a very personal way of doing this that works for them, wether it is strictly needed or not (like bagnetto). For them LM health is their livelihood.
For me as a baking enthusiast I am basically experimenting to see what works and what the boundaries are. For instance, using cheaper King Arthur flour seems to work for maintaining (less so with cheaper bleached enriched high gluten flour), also putting 'harvested' mature LM in water in the fridge seems to work etc.
Learning that the LM has the right texture helps as I was not sure whether I was way off as in some videos it appears very stiff.
My next challenge is to get an even more open crumb and e.g. learning to properly candy peels and pears.